Tom and I sorta mixed it up last week. I hope/think we've both retreated from offensive stances enough that we can have a good discussion. In any case, my apologies for overreacting, Tom. I do get touchy sometimes.
Let me start off explaining where I come from.
I am a big-time Chiefs fan. I was born near Kansas City, and raised in Montana where there are no regular sports teams shown, so I followed the Royals and Chiefs through the newspaper...I watched the Royals lose the series in 1981, and then win it all in 1985. But as my love of football grew, my love of baseball declined as much. I stopped watching baseball, and from 1986 on, I doted on the Chiefs. I had already loved them as underdogs through the 80s, and was too young to recall their heyday of the 60s and very early 70s. I didn't really even recall Joe Delaney, to tell the truth...although my brother's recounting of that tragedy merely cemented my fandom. I remember Macovic, and the Special-Teams led playoff berth. I suffered through the Frank Ganz disaster the next year. I remember Marty's first season of 8-7-1, and waiting around to just barely miss getting the wildcard playoff berth that season. I remember actually believing Matt Blundin was the Chiefs QB of the future. I am a homer.
I see no reason to believe in doom. Every season is a new beginning, and a new hope. I understand deeply that last year is often immaterial, that the difference between winning and losing a game is literally inches, and between a winning and losing season can be a handful of plays, and between a successful and disappointing year can be one significant injury. I understand that it is a chess match, and the wrong call at the wrong time gives up a touchdown, but the right call at the right time can allow a mediocre team to make a great stop to pull off an underdog win.
I get my knowledge of football from a few sources. Number One, and most important, is Avalon Hill's game of Paydirt. It's an excellent tutorial on the strategy of football, in that they use statistics to chart out a team's actual performance. They have a weighted dice system and a complex interaction of offense and defense that actually works so that teams play best when they play to the strengths they exhibited during the season. If you are in a run-prevent stack, a play-action pass is gonna be a big gain, if not a touchdown. If you pull people back into coverage, or take out an LB to add an extra DB, you are going to have a tough time stopping the run. One player up front can put the pressure on a QB to make a secondary look awesome; conversely, a top-notch secondary can give the lineman a chance to get big sacks and fumbles. The right call puts players in the location to make the play. The more of a safety net you give the players (multiple layers of defenders, etc), the less people you can have at the point of attack, and vice versa. A play-it-safe, bend-but-don't-break defense gives up lots of yards, but fewer points, but it depends on players to read things the same way. Familiarity of what player judgment is vital. An attacking defense, on the other hand, goes after the other team and tries to dictate to the offense...but it can get burned in large chunks.
Greg Robinson uses a read-and-react style of defense to not allow a big play. That gives up lots of yardage. With good players, they keep the opposing offense out of the endzone long enough to catch them in a mistake and get a turnover. That was the Chiefs in the 1st 9 games of the year. The offense got them ahead quickly in most of the games, making the opposing team press, which made it easier for the defense. In a handful of games, the defense wasn't able to hold the lead, but they kept it close enough to allow the offense the chance to win. Evidence? The Chiefs easily led the league in turnover differential. The players don't suck.
But in the 2nd half of the season, the QB of the defense couldn't play, and his replacement was an inexperienced rookie who wasn't ready yet. Lack of depth killed the season. Greg Robinson wasn't a good enough coach to recover from the loss of his smartest and most savvy defender, the one who called the defensive plays. Would Denver have won both Superbowls if John Elway had missed the final 5 games and first playoff game? Of course not. (Just the first example that comes to mind). With the defense unable to stop the opposing team's offense, and bad luck in scheduling teams with fairly good offenses at that point of the season, Greg Robinson began pressing, going for the big play to get the stop. Unfortunately, he was too predictable and didn't give his players safety help. Of course, better tackling would have helped, so the players aren't blameless. But bad tackling is league-wide right now, and I would think you should also hold the top defensive coach at least partially responsible for not ensuring his players knew how to tackle. But even worse, his scheme relied on the front line larging just clogging lanes and occupying blockers so the LBs could make the play. When Maslowski was in, they did. Once he was out, well....
The other source of my opinion is from Kansas City Dot Com's Ask Ivan Carter. This guy really knows football. He isn't a total homer like me, nor is he automatically derisive and critical like Whitlock (who flip-flops and plays favorites with players). Carter tells it like it is, and his observations on players are rarely wrong.
He's the one saying that the TE Wilson will help open up the offense. He's the one saying the coaches believe Key Fox was underrated in the draft and will push for playing time. He's the one who points out that Welbourne is a top-notch tackle with the right attitude, but that Bober and Williams are good enough to push Welbourne, and that it should be good enough to make us not miss Tait. You'd have to have been reading him over the last several weeks to get all that, but here's an example:
Greetings and hang in there. Training camp is right around the corner my friend. I wouldn't say that Brett Williams has progressed slowly. Dick Vermeil and the offensive line coaches have been pleased by what they've seen out of him. The decision to release Marcus Spears was made in part because they feel Williams has the ability to compete for playing time come camp. Now, I think that John Welbourne is going to be your opening day right tackle but Williams is important because he adds depth and because LT Willie Roaf isn't getting any younger. The problem Williams has is the same problem faced by several young players on the Chiefs (Larry Johnson especially) when you come to a 13-3 team with Pro Bowl type talent at numerous positions, it can be hard to get on the field and show what you can do.
Sure, there are still questions. Nothing in any of opinions should be taken to mean that disaster won't happen. If Maslowski isn't ready to play, if Kavika Mitchell didn't learn enough from being thrown into the fire last year, if Junior Siavii can't get the hang of the NFL, if Sims doesn't get motivated by his pride, if Julian Battle didn't learn enough to push any of the DBs ahead of him, if we have a few significant injuries on either side of the ball (although improved depth should make that less likely to affect things), the Chiefs will have a bad season, facing a stronger schedule.
Here are some more things from Ivan:
because the Chiefs have a mess of big bodies at the DT spot. There is going to be a ton of competition with a group that includes Ryan Sims, John Browning, Lional Dalton, Eric Downing, Eddie Freeman, Montique Sharpe and of course, Big Junior. As you can tell, I'm not a big WWE guy so my knowledge about Brock the wrestler is seriously lacking....As for position groups, I think that everything starts up front with the defensive tackles. I will continue to hammer this point home as training camp approaches and gets underway. The Chiefs simply can't allow opponents to gouge them for 5.1 yards per carry again. Can't happen. Now, the DTs weren't totally to blame for this scary stat but stopping the run does begin with them. The good news is this: I'm looking for big things out of Ryan Sims this season. He's ticked off by the way the defense was shoved around last season and he's ticked off by the way the media and fans have been dogging the defense. I think he's even a little ticked off at me. (Late in the season I wrote a story that carried the headline: "Damn Defense" As you can imagine, that didn't go over too well with some of the defensive guys although one of came up to me and said: "Were you wrong?") Anyway, if Ryan and the fellas can channel that anger into their play, this team is going to have a chance to win a Super Bowl and everyone will be happy.
...As for the backers, I think the biggest question involves MLB where Maz is still getting that knee right and where Kawika Mitchell and Monty Biesel will go to camp looking for PT.
...I'd say Kris Wilson simply because Al Saunders has proven so adept at getting the most out of every guy's talent in his offense. The kid has great hands and he seems to have picked up the offense pretty quickly.
... I think offensive line is the deepest part of this football team. The starting five will be LT Willie Roaf LG Brian Waters C Casey Wiegmann RG Will Shields and RT John Welbourn. That's a damn good line even with John Tait now doing his thing in Chicago. The backups offer depth and versatility. Chris Bober has played center, guard and tackle in five NFL seasons. Jordan Black has shown promise at guard and/tackle and Brett Williams is being groomed as a future tackle. In addition, the coaching staff has been thrilled with the talent shown by seventh round pick Kevin Sampson, also a tackle. On top of that, the Chiefs have two of the most respected offensive line coaches in the business in Mike Solari and Irv Eatman. The big question for this team is on the other line where Ryam Sims, John Browning, Eric Hicks, Vonnie Holliday and others cannot by allow teams to average 5.1 yards per carry this fall. If that happens again, it won't matter what's happening on offense.
...From what I hear, Priest is 100 percent and attacking the offseason the same way he did when he was an undrafted rookie trying to earn a spot on Baltimore's special teams. (No wonder why he's great)
... Key Fox is not only going to make this team, I wouldn't be shocked if he earned some playing time at outside backer. In OTAs and mini-camp, Fox showed excellent instincts. He seemed to quickly grasp everything that was being thrown at him and he seemed to always be around the football. Those are good signs. The book on him is that he's a very good tackler but sometimes struggled to get off blocks in college. I won't get you overly excited until I see him go up against Tony Richardson for the first time in full contact drills up in camp. It's always funny to see the rookie LBs the first time they get nailed by T-Rich. They always walk back to the huddle with their ears ringing and they always have a stunned look on their face like: "Damn, this ain't college anymore." T-Rich lays wood. As for fantasy thoughts, I wouldn't spend good picks on Chiefs wideouts. Al Saunders simply spreads the ball around way too much. And I'm not sure yet how Parker is going to fit into the mix. He's going to be battling for reps with Marc Boerigter and Dante Hall. He is fast though so that will give him a chance to get on the field in certain situations.
The thing is, all I was ever trying to do is point out that the national pundits say "The Chiefs added no one significant on defense" but they actually did in Siavii and maybe Key Fox. Aside from those two players (and two players can make a huge difference), the defense should be improved just because of another year together. No one is so old that they lost a step to age, chemistry is very important and quite underrated, and one thing I've believed for years (after hearing analysts mention it in the early stages of free agency after big name after big name busted with new teams) is that it often takes FAs until the 2nd year to make their biggest impact. And even if the defense is exactly the same, I think Gunther's scheme fits the players better. And if Gunther can't get better performance with his playcalling, early reports of Trent Green's improvement in accuracy to phenomenal levels, Priest Holmes improvement in health and strength to 2001 levels, and the addition of Wilson and some underrated WRs in Kris Wilson, Sammy Parker, and even Chris Horn-?- (back from injury and having done well in NFL-E), the offense might never trail in the first place. That would be a miracle in modern NFL football, but the Chiefs offense was awesome last year and might be even better if the WRs really do represent an upgrade.
But as I tried to say a few time, and as Ivan Carter makes clear: it ain't even training camp yet. His opinions are from watching the guys play without pads. I'm looking to how the Chiefs could do better next year. That isn't the same as "I predict they will." Just that there really is very little chance that next year will be a repeat of last year. Something's gotta give, and it usually does. In all likelihood, the Chiefs will either play in the AFC Championship Game (where anything could happen), or they'll miss the playoffs, and probably nothing in between. But I've gotta feeling (maybe nothing more than wishful-thinking Homerism) that this is the Chiefs' year. Everything is in place, and we have a good chance to surprise some people. If we do, you won't hear anything about the Chiefs' defense being sub-par, you'll see 8-10 Chiefs from both sides of the ball playing in the Pro-Bowl:
Priest Holmes
Trent Green
Tony Gonzales
Willie Roaf
Will Shields
Dante Hall
Jerome Woods
Ryan Sims
Greg Wesley
Scott Fujita
And Brian Waters, Tony Richardson, Dexter McLeon, Shawn Barber, and Eric Hicks will have a case for having been snubbed.
Maybe.
Comments (5)
I'm not a homer. I make my ... (Below threshold)1. Posted by Tom | July 14, 2004 12:08 PM | Score: 0 (0 votes cast)
I'm not a homer. I make my judgements based on what is realistically possible. Last year that meant I had to pick KC to win the AFC West, with Denver finishing second. This year it means I have to swap them around.
You restated points I've already rebutted. I haven't changed my mind. I don't see the point in restating myself. I hate going round in circles.
As for your new points.
You put unrealistic hope in your crop of rookies and NFL-E players. Right now there's nothing but mini-camp hype to go off of. If I listen to that, then I'd have to believe that Denver will have half a dozen rookies and at least two NFL-E defensive players going to the Pro Bowl this season.
The reality is, most rookies either struggle or fail and NFL-E success is not a good indicator of NFL success. If it was, Jarius Jackson would be an NFL superstar QB, rather than struggling to hang on to a roster spot . . . as a Safety.
As for losing important defensive players (the Elway comparison was, to be polite, crazy), Denver lost both Mobely and Gold last year. Both of them are as good as or better than Maz. I'd take either of them or even their replacements, over even a healthy Maz.
KC's talent just isn't very good. Ok, fine, you're a cofessed homer, so I'll give you wishful thinking, but that doesn't change the reality of KC's situation.
You stopped short of calling Tait a scrub in this article, but came down hard on him earlier. That was more homer induced distortion. Tait didn't get shifted to RT because he stinks. He got shifted because Roaf came and Roaf is at a completely different level.
Kind of like Tony Jones was a damn fine LT, but moved to the RT spot when Zimmerman came to Denver. Denver's biggest upgrade was not as the LT spot, it was at the RT spot. The same can be said for KC with the Roaf / Tait change up.
Welbourne may be a good Gaurd, but he's not Tait when it comes to playing Tackle. If he was that good, he would have.
Just as Denver downgraded at RT when Lepsis took over for Jones, KC will downgrade when Welbourne takes over for Tait.
KC will fight for a WC spot this year and will likely have their heads handed to them in the first round.
Is that a carved in stone fact? No, but it is a likely outcome based on what KC has done and what the other teams in the AFC have done.
1. Posted by Tom | July 14, 2004 12:08 PM |
Score: 0 (0 votes cast)
Posted on July 14, 2004 12:08
2. Posted by Nathan | July 14, 2004 8:56 PM | Score: 0 (0 votes cast)
Hmmm...maybe you aren't arguing with me. Because I never once said anything about Tait being a scrub, just a whiner with a bad attitude who couldn't cut it at LT. He was a fine RT, but so are many players. I doubt he would have ever made the pro-bowl in KC or at any point in his carerr.
But the other point: it isn't just ME saying this stuff, it's from a guy who is pretty dang honest and blunt about KC players. When someone sucks, he says so. When someone has a chance to push for playing time, he says so, and I put stock into it and repeat it. That's not the same thing as saying such-and-such rookie is going to be an All-Pro and lead us to the Superbowl.
I don't even have a problem with you saying Denver may end up winning the Division. I am saying it isn't as simple as you say it is, that some of Denver's FA acquisitions and losses have a great potential to turn out to be a disaster if it screws with chemistry. If playing the big-name FA game was the way to win Superbowls, Washington would have won the last three, no?
Stability can be just as important as a big-name player. Players can and do improve within their own team. There is nothing written in stone that your personal, unsubstantiated opinion that KC's players on defense are all substandard, when there is a good deal of evidence Greg Robinson is a substandard coach. And before you try to pull out that hackneyed useless phrase that coaches don't play on the field, perhaps you'll explain why any team bothers paying 6-figure salaries to coaches if they have so little impact?
And yes, both Mobley and Ian Gold are/were far better players than Maslowski, no dispute. Except that Maslowski's biggest contribution was as the defensive QB calling the defensive alignments. Neither Gold nor Mobley do that for Denver, that's Al Wilson, I believe, and his role/impact in Denver's defense is far greater than the other two. That's why I used the Quarterback comparison. Because we missed Maslowski's leadership far more than his playing ability. In the same manner, Denver losing Nalen or KC losing Weigmann would be far more devestating to the offensive line than a right tackle, because the Centers call the blocking assignments, and you could always just run/roll-out to the left.
But since our entire understanding of football is predicated on different elements, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, and see what happens on the field.
Personally, I think Denver and KC will split, but KC will end up one game ahead at the end of the season and win the division.
2. Posted by Nathan | July 14, 2004 8:56 PM |
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Posted on July 14, 2004 20:56
3. Posted by Tom | July 14, 2004 10:45 PM | Score: 0 (0 votes cast)
You really can't resist making some kind of childish personal dig, can you?
Then, in one breath you claim not to have bashed Tait, in the next you bash him. He couldn't "cut it" at LT? Explain the extended success of KC's O line with him on the left side? Could Welbourne play LT? You really expect a guy who played G to move to RT and be better than a guy who was good enough protect his QB's blind side? Talk about blind homerism. Your boy, Ivan Carter, doesn't bash Tait. He only says he thinks the line will be good inspite of losing him. Sounds more like he feels Tait was a very fine player.
You admit that the "QB" of your defense wasn't even as good as the guys who didn't lead Denver's D. Then you continue to claim that you have adequate defensive talent to win the division? Maz isn't even healthy, yet, and he obviously has no depth behind him.
You imply that Denver's FA's will flop, without offering anything to support such an opinion.
Oh, right, you get your wisdom from a guy who says that KC's D will improve because Ryan Sims is "ticked". What was it that kept him from getting "ticked" last season when he and his D were having their lunch money taken from them?
Oh my goodness, he said the phrase "players play, coaches don't" is hackneyed and useless! Right, I forgot, it was Robinson in pads, getting his cookies handed to him all season long. It was Robinson out of position when Culpepper was blitzed and burned the D for a TD. It was Robinson missing tackles all season long.
You have a habit of placing blame with someone convenient. Tait's gone. He must have been a shoddy player, not to mention more hassle than he was worth. Robinson is gone. Surely he's to blame for all of KC's defensive failings. Couldn't have been the players. No way. They have plenty of talent, plenty of smarts. He just misused it.
Stability is worse than worthless when you keep bad talent together and then make that group of losers learn a brand new system. Chemistry only happens when every players understands what his mates will be doing in a given situation. Introduce a complete new set of rules and you eliminate chemistry.
You can't even think for yourself. You read one guy's opinion, which is based on nothing but mini-camp, and adopt it as gospel. You make silly predictions about sending 8 - 10 players to the Pro Bowl. In one comment you talk up KC's rookies and NFL - E players like they're all on the edge of greatness. Then you imply in this comment that you haven't done such a thing at all. You spout utterly unsupported opinions that contradict reality, do nothing to back them up, and then get into a flaming fit because anyone doubts your extraodinary wisdom. You right articles as if you're some kind of authority, but you can't get beyond your desperate need to play homer. You want to be both respected for your views, yet can't even offer honest criticism of your team. You'll start to make one really great point, then blow it completely with some insane homerism. It's impossible to take you seriously, though I know you're very serious.
I know you can't resist getting the last word in, so take it. I won't be reading it, or anything you write, but let'er rip.
3. Posted by Tom | July 14, 2004 10:45 PM |
Score: 0 (0 votes cast)
Posted on July 14, 2004 22:45
4. Posted by Nathan | July 15, 2004 12:48 AM | Score: 0 (0 votes cast)
Take it how you want to take it. Like I said, we'll see how it plays out.
I really think you must skim over my words without reading. I never said I think Denver's FAs will fail, just that signing big-name free agents isn't guaranteed success. And I offered very substantial proof: The Washington Redskins of the last 3 years. What have the accomplished with all their high-priced big-name free agents. You don't respond, you just call names and say I offered no proof when the proof is in black and white.
Some teams sign a free agent that makes a significant difference. Ken Norton Jr and Deion Sanders helped take San Francisco to win the Superbowl. Deion Sanders then helped Dallas win the next year. Rodney Harrison helped New England...but remember, critics said the Patriots had blown it getting rid of Milloy (or was it Law? I get them confused sometimes) to replace him with a guy most considered "washed up" Blessed few other top-shelf free agents have made a significant difference in their first year.
I think for myself very nicely, thank you. I managed to think that Tait was a whiner who performed well on the field. He didn't hack it LT because he was going to be moved or benched even before the Chiefs signed Willie Roaf. I think he was a whiner because he still complained about his initial contract 3 years later, and because he made statements complaining about how he was used that I would consider being whining. That doesn't mean he can't play. But he's not pro-bowl, never has been, and can easily be replaced by another starting RT of starting caliber, as Welbourne is. Philedelphia let him go because he wanted starting T level pay because he was performing at a better-than-average level, remember?
I also clearly said that Maslowski's biggest contribution was his leadership, not his playing ability. How is that so hard to understand?
You are so convinced that anything you think MUST be the truth that you refuse to accept any other thought, view, or judgment to be true. If I say something I think, and back it up with examples, you reject the examples and say I offered nothing. If I give reason, you ignore the reasons and say I offered nothing. If I quote an authority who writes professionally, you accuse me of not being able to think of myself and say I offered nothing. I offered quite a bit, you just seem torefuse to accept any viewpoint or opinion that isn't your own.
I have appreciated many of the things you've said when you wrote on your own. I agree with some of them. I disagree with some of them, but respect your right to hold those opinions. My angry statements only come when you dismiss an opinion of mine as "garbage", "nonsense", "no basis", etc, without providing anything except an automatic gainsaying of whatever I said. I thought if I backed off and gave you some room, we could have a discussion. I guess not.
Good day to you.
4. Posted by Nathan | July 15, 2004 12:48 AM |
Score: 0 (0 votes cast)
Posted on July 15, 2004 00:48
5. Posted by Nathan | July 15, 2004 12:58 AM | Score: 0 (0 votes cast)
In fact, you go your way, and I'll go mine. I'll no longer respond to your comments on my posts, and I'll stay away from yours.
Deal?
5. Posted by Nathan | July 15, 2004 12:58 AM |
Score: 0 (0 votes cast)
Posted on July 15, 2004 00:58